It just doesnt happen! Were buying into the B.S. Historically we all seem to know our roles and then wars seem to morph and leaders assign spec. On September 12, 2014 at 9:14 pm, Herschel Smith said: Oh good grief. Travis, I didnt ask why the airmen of WWII were able to sleep well. Eve the troops will tell you thats hogwash. Ive never been anything more than a REMF, but I understand maps and terrain. Hence, they cant be depended on to fight for/maintain it. 2- Its same difference between ST6 and Delta, when shit hits the fan, Delta, being made up from mostly Rangers and SF have the ability to switch to grunt mode and fight a normal infantry battle. I agree with everything else, but I cant agree that you kill these people just because they came across you. Yes, the SEALS' sacrifice during Operation Red Wings was a waste From reading the book and watching the movie it seems that the plan was were going to take some day packs, walk up this mountain, take some pictures, and leave.. But again, that is just my opinion based on my own personal observations and your mileage will probably vary. 3. Gas prices would be 80 cents and half the world would be at peace. During his time in office, our country had already suffered a tremendous loss of civilian life at the hands of one of these assholes. Others may come to a different one. Kristensen Family. They did a fly over saying it was clean while AQ, and Taliban were hiding in caves not giving off a heat signature. However, the Taliban forces ambushed the four-man US Navy SEALs team and killed three of them, and . If youre trying to say that this was a crusade, that was used to raise funds from the wallets of citizens and put them into the coffers of politicians and cronies, Id listen up until a point. On December 3, 2016 at 11:30 pm, Swampfox said: Classic General custard story dont play with war period. What a lose of lives. . Let us know in the comments what you thought of the interview. How many Taliban were killed during Operation Red Wings? On October 30, 2015 at 11:24 pm, disqus_uK3papxNJb said: Didnt read back through all the comments (it got repetitive after a while), but for anyone to critique actions based on the movie is suspect at best. As primitive as the Taliban are, look at what they threw down on the elite SEALs. The option of kill or be compromised is a false dichotomy and I take exception to the idea that anything else would be the equivalent of a slow, torturous murder. 3. I do solemnly swear to support and defend. Go back and check CNN about 4 weeks ago and what did they report ISIS capturing? The helicopter may have been lost by a stinger from a Pakistani defense force. I dont fault you for yours. The American military does not do that, period. There was no reason to limit the recon team to four., I was on a recon mission in Fallujah, and we had an entire platoon. Also it seems interesting how the Seals have awards these days. Source? Let the Rangers and Marines handle these kinds of mission. Though rules tend to be different during war, it is war that slowly erodes the Rights of man. Is so, should General Kearney have charged those snipers with murder? I think that they did the right thing, but, 3 of them are dead. If you want to see what a hero looks like, look no further than Marcus Luttrell. Seal are very well trained in that type of fire fight because they will always be out numbered. Get with the program. what trained commando or conventional infantryman would be inserted in mountainous terrain and not carry ropes. The Navy's Official Account of Operation Red Wings | USAMM Im PRT Airborne, so I really dont have deep operational knowledge of procedures&tactics used by U.S. Armed Forces, but as I think, theres a general consensus on basic military tactics on all spectres, be it land air or sea. Taking Bin Laden down is one thing but fighting conventional infantry battle if entirely another. It is not clear why the SEALS were used for this type of mission, perhaps because there werent enough ARSOF guys available. Three good men died without good cause, that is the tragedy. FWIW, from a life long clerk the mission was f**k from the get go. Its called self-defense, not murder. I must have been out of my mind. He made his choice and his men paid with their lives. There are also cases during the end of the war and the pacification of Germany when civilians were actually targeted by us directly. The notion that the QRF lost its CAS to other missions or emergent problems is simply ridiculous. In homage to the men that were killed, Lone Survivor closely mirrors the true story of Operation Red Wings, a tragic 2005 mission gone wrong in Afghanistan. I wouldnt have killed them. The more they are, the louder they are, not in the textual sense off course. None of this should ever have happened, the weight of that rests squarely on the shoulders of the staff planning the mission and the SEALS on the ground making numerous tactical errors once the operation was blown. Talking about tactics the problem is that the Army as a whole wants to drift more to the specops mindset. Goat herders high in the mountains, in a forest, stumbling right on a tiny group of camod SEALs? When I was active duty I was ina pathfinder unitand part of our METL(mission essential task listing) was performingsurveillance. The focus of the conversation was tactics, comms, lack of a legitimate QRF, lack of a viable battle plan, etc. In Vietnam the USMC implemented the Strategic Hamlet program, which was successful until abandoned for politics and because the war in the north turned more conventional. IA, If the enemy still does not know your exact location engaging them from a Lack of communication plan (team internal and external) You are a former marine but not a former SEAL. Losing the Apache helicopters meant exactly one thing. At least Rambo knew how to be stealth. A larger team of soldiers would mean raising the chances of being discovered. Crony capitalismbusinessman bribing public servants to help them break rules governing a fair market is our problem. With the exception of Luttrell, all were killed June 28, 2005, by enemy forces while supporting Operation Red Wing. 5. We train this way in the Marine Corps as well, because you dont want a shit load of Marines on a recon mission, its more likely that movement will be seen, injuries will occur, more men make more sound just walking through a mountainous terrain, ect. I admire and respect the SEALS but bottom line is why no Marine Recon Element to do the mission? Short Change Hero but you're the only survivor of Operation Red Wings Why didnt they use radio propagation software to determine comms along their entire patrol route before the mission?When they missed two check-in periods, why didnt their HQ send an aircraft out to try to make comms from above, where they should have LOS? Axis of Evil? But had that happened, the story wouldnt be about a teams courage in a bad situation, itd be a news clip on why several SEALs were being charged with deliberate murder. Agreeing with mikes comments, I would have tied up the herders and forced them to walk fast back to the dropback. On January 20, 2014 at 2:15 pm, james b said: Just looking at it from the outside, I do see some progress (superficially at least)in some of the causes of this tragedy. On November 12, 2014 at 4:38 pm, Mel said: You seriously want to equate Republicans (moderates are worthless) with Democrats (not one good one)? All of the ROE discussion in the comments is mine. US citizens vote to make collective decisions. This caused many Seals lives during operation red wing. might as well knock on the front door. We stayed the course and these countries have great economies. If you set four SEALs down by helicopter, you could have set an entire platoon down. Might as well train to do that, it will save lives. They want to protect you from the evils of the free internetone of the greatest inventions in humankinds history. Every member of the Army Rangers, United States Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, Delta Forces, etc. If Im wrong and you care, explain. If your getting all this information from the movie you need to do more research. On January 14, 2014 at 11:45 am, jean said: Just to humor some of my fellow veterans and venerate some the spectacular events of martial history by selected SOF units in Kunar Theater of operations: _____ I sat with my father in late December watching the UFC fights. They were put into a situation that they were out of their element to do and without adequate support exactly as your son said. On January 25, 2014 at 2:48 pm, Nate said: Well, agree to disagree then. Allow its citizens to perish because Hezbollah wont follow the dictates of the Christian theologicans who cannot think in the twenty first century and instead want to think a 1000 years ago? Seems to me like our military has gotten better at second guessing our soldiers, but hasnt gotten any better at judging the actions of their commanders. Marcus Luttrell Opens Up During Powerful Interview - The Daily Caller It is not the first time Navy SEAL demonstrated lack of conventional infantry skills. On January 17, 2014 at 1:55 pm, James Harris, Jr. said: Though Luttrell is in favor of letting them go in the movie, the weight of the final decision does not fall on him as it does in the book. Doctrine is Doctrine. Then, a cost-benefit analysis would be made of whether to make a very expensive, rule-subverting mission to eliminate the target effectively. Seems like I remember something else that happened over our southern border a few years back. Every Seal I have ever met or worked with has been the opposite of that statement. Before one criticizes the decision to use such a small recon team do some home work on the LRRPs and MacVSog in Nam and even todays protocol on recon. It will likely offend some people, and since it comes straight from a former enlisted Marine, there is slight language warning. We bombed places in WWII because it was legally justified by the President in order to save tens of thousands of US lives having to not invade two countries where the vast majority of people SUPPORTED their crazy leaders. III. A job better suited to Rangers in his opinion. Just my opinion which doesnt mean shit at the end of the day. It is also debatable that carrying a weapon constitutes a reason to shoot a person there are far too many examples of why this is bad policy. The article isnt about politics. With the exception of Luttrell, all were killed June 28, 2005, by enemy forces while supporting Operation Red Wing. The most obvious wasted death is the one that occurs because of terrible command decisions. I am not interested in how people felt when they did it (in the context of this question to you although I do take great interest in talking to the many veterans with whom I have conversed). Not such a big deal with 12 guys but could be huge with 4. Probably not. Did they ask to have foreign soldiers in their country? He had high praise for them in the water though and coming from him that was something as he was on an SF dive team (CDQC & WIC qualified as well as SOTIC and a litany of other SF course). With conventional units, this is a good technique because conventional units are only responsible for a limited amount of terrain. Hum? Stalin was demanding that the Allies open a second front in the West. Frankly Im not sure that folks are thinking hard or clearly enough about those kids and ROE yet. Watching Luttrell fight to hold back his emotions during that interview was a gut punch. On September 11, 2015 at 10:43 am, Fear Factor said: Lets say you have a large beautiful family, but on the other side, theres a giant mountain lion somewhere. 2 of 3 of my special operations deployments my unit was teamed up with these guys. your a marine theyre SEALs totally different way of operating they go after big time players and you a soldiers who are expendable. Second the Seals, using night vision goggles, could have escaped faster and would have had an advantage in a firefight as well. At that time I thought RECON and even the everyday Infantry guys were ninjas. On July 1, 2014 at 10:37 am, Colleen said: This assessment is the best I have read up to the point of the comment about sending in the Marines. The powers that be had task these groups opposite of what they do best. you did a recon mission in Iraq and now your expert on how things work in Afganistan. Word of this practice traveled fast and thats why many towns had white sheets hanging from the windows to signify it was safe (clear of German troops) and that the town had surrenderedand heaven help the town if there were German troops/partisans/werewolves hiding nearby that the town was unaware of and they fired on our troops! Now, taking this to the extreme point, that there were no means available for support, I do believe a strong skilled action team should not be far from them, and yes, in a classic infantry form, be it Marines, Rangers, Airborne., as you well mention, in case of direct confrontation against a large number force would occur, which quite frankly, had all the chances to happen, had they met the goat herders or not. On June 24, 2014 at 12:02 pm, Penka Sabeva said: Yours is a super cool comment , very balanced and so true . The reality of the situation is 7.62 does not discriminate. Terrible Hide site. Four men walk through the undergrowth of the mountain. What should they do? That being said, I started to type out some responses in general about the failing in some of the comparisons (still, the above critiques being based on the movie), but figured Id save myself some grief and post a link where its already been done. They may have been spotted before the goat herder incident. Not being there I have no right to criticize the actions of the men. I will not judge you for your views or Marcus Luttrell or his team members who voted differently. Hope they know and are handling you? In reading the book , it seems like they had the mindset that it was as much a sniper tasking as recon. Have not done that in a while , Marine corp. is obsolete .. time to trim some fat out of the defense budget. In WWII, if those airmen hadnt bombed German industry to oblivion, thousands more lives of U.S. soldiers would have been lost. The real reason the QRF flew in without Apache cover has not been released. They were there to observe, not get in a shootout. My point was the terrain dictated the loadout to an extent. More honestly, I dont know why I have readers at all. Just war theory was developed for wars fought hundreds of years ago, with great armies lined up in fields of battle, at the borders of nation states. then they have diving and explosives training. On January 14, 2014 at 5:29 pm, Steve said: I saw the movie and I wonder if someone with expertise could comment on this alternative tactic. And the commander who put this operation together needs to be busted down to private. The point is to avoid being in that predicament in the first place. By the way, the post you linked holds no interest for me whatsoever. A Mixed Bag Gun Decision From Third Circuit, Fun Training Exercises To Try This Summer. The one Chinook that did land at the bottom of the mountain (razor 2) had zero casualties. On February 25, 2015 at 1:28 am, Haterade said: The chinooks (the qrf lost in lone survivor and the one carrying devgru personnel) were probably shot down with US made stinger missiles, supplied to the afgan mujahadeen by the cia, to use against the soviets. Furthermore, this obama guy you call the president..is wallowing in his own mess. Why, it was one of Saddams WMD sites, and further it was already known and cataloged by the UN inspectors after the war. But, um, George Bush started this was war? The 4 member team was too small in number to adequately meet any of these priorities. Seem they go directly to the Navy Cross or MOH and totally bypass the PH when things go awry. Then more soldiers would have died in the time it took to relocate them. Plus, the goat-herder story sounds contrived. He tried.. They hiked for 12 hours to get to the spot where they set up. Likewise, Apocalypse Now hit it with the adage that charging people with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500. Why? Marcus Luttrell and Joe Rogan recently did an incredibly powerful interview, and every American should watch it. FM communication, like your son is used to, is useful for only comparatively short distances, and unsecured cell phones are never the primary means of commo. Finally, killing shepherds and kids might sound like a good idea to the person who doesnt have to do it at that moment. Go ahead and tell me that those Germans, some of them Jews in slave labor in industry, some of them children, some of them the elderly and infirmed, were all legitimate military targets. A SAW, rope and claymores with CS powdered or CS grenades would have changed the outcome of the compromised situation buying them time to exfil. However, Fallujah was a situation where leadership fucked their Marines. The Army is transitioning to the similar BCT. Obama was giving Hollywood the scoop the next day. Actions on enemy contact during insertion I'll try to compare and contrast Operation Red Wings with one well-known SAS patrol (Bravo 20) during Desert Storm that ended in a similar disaster. July 1, 2015, 6:11 AM. Due to the uncertainty of the situation, contingencies require plans, rapid response, and special procedures to ensure safety and readiness of personnel and equipment. The could not have set a platoon down because there was no where to hide. First, stick to the point of the article. Intel is never one hundred percent. Take a day or two, but walk in unannounced. I come from the Army and utilized Scout Sniper, High Angle, SOTIC, AMU, and a couple civilian courses. Thats my .02, take it for what its worth, absolutely nothing other than the opinion of an old beat down deaf artilleryman who spent a couple decades in the 80s, 90s and early 00s living in the field but who happened to be friends with some the finest soldiers on the planetUS Army Special Forces. So how about the goat-herders? Now, back to the issue of tactics, folks. Your laughter that I would leave them to die of exposure or dehydration doesnt take the seriousness of the choice into account. The Real-Life Story Behind "Lone Survivor" | HISTORY I will spam all such comments. I looked down, fascinated but aghast, satisfied yet horrified. and you playing the race card is really pathetic. Your son makes some very interesting points. On December 19, 2014 at 12:43 am, John Dunbar USMC said: The terrorists that flew planes into the twin towers started the fucking war..NOT GWB. On December 18, 2014 at 8:57 am, marine0369retired said: This operation took a place in 2005, 3 years before the Obama administration took office. I met a Seal whose experience really sums it up. Putting them in the middle of an ambush on the side of a mountain not so much. I havent been able to find a source that definitively links the goat herders to the hard compromise and ambush by Shahs men. Their inspiring spirit continues to resonate and . I got out in 2010 and the military I knew is a much different military than when I served. On June 8, 2014 at 11:10 pm, NeverAgain said: I would have killed the goat herders and continued with op. The only one who knows what happened there was Marcus Luttrell, so he is the only one who should be able to criticize what happened. The SDT team did nor have a SAW becoause thier job was not to engage it was to observe and report they were armed well enough to break contact. I would have ended it in a hurry. They had tie raps A lot of them but knew if they tied everyone up the mission would be over. While Im not for abandoning any more mil-capability in any service weve done that too much already there are certainly more feasible candidates than the USMC. The Rangers served 3-4 month tours in special compounds with their own special chow. As someone already correctly posted above, another team could have set up a repeater if they wanted to go light. No, four to six men is the correct number for a recon in the boonies. 4. This alone is a mistake, but even more critically, the location selected should have used patrol base selection criteria: a location away from natural lines of drift, away from major avenues of approach (think roads or trails), away from valuable terrain (key tactical, easily navigable, or naturally silhouetting), offering good cover and concealment, easily defendable for a short period of time. You dont kill civilians. Previous Post Next Post He was shot in the head not once, but twice yet continued to fight. But at this point, virtually any servant that enters office will be forced to comply with the people in charge, or theyll be subject to a middle class life style (heaven forbid!) Pilots in WWII could sleep soundly because they were doing what they were ordered as necessary to hasten the end of the war, and they didnt have to hear the screams of people being melded with asphalt. I had actually cast a vote which I knew could sign our death warrant. Killing them would have been wrong not to mention illegal. It needs to be your nation attacked ours and as a result we are going to demolish you so that no other nation gets a similar idea. On January 17, 2014 at 2:42 pm, Herschel Smith said: I also thought I would point out that poor Marcus had further pain inflicted on him. these guys are bad , smart and beyond effective. When we need the best they are called in. But if they are dead, you would have never known. On January 22, 2014 at 10:22 pm, JC said: I have read all of the comments and would suggest a couple of things based upon my social interactions with both Seals and Delta Force personnel. I was in a Ranger Batt and it took me 4 deployments to just get a shot at Batt Sniper. Why didnt they use VHF or UHF? Next, about that conversation they had concerning the goat herders. On June 2, 2015 at 5:01 pm, visitor said: I follow what you are saying. Why the Apaches were aloud to be pulled off from the QRF is mind boggling. From the dozen or so books Ive read by SEALs, detailing SEAL training and missions, SEAL history, etc. The Army infantry skillset has dwindled horribly and their leaders ability to fight the infantry fight has atrophied. Oh wait, hes not in the WH, hes playing golf again, my bad. or were potentially compromised. In Najaf in August 2004, the grunts had to teach them how to operate the M-249 and M-240. On January 14, 2014 at 7:52 am, McThag said: Do counterinsurgency, something the SEALs think theyre too good to do.. So any planning failures were on the team itself. Have you seen the video of them with the bodies? ops personnel? Abysmal com plan, coms arent perfect but if you do get coms waiting to tell your CO you have been compromised rather than the radio operator because its an unsecured line doesnt make sense, your going to tell the CO over the same unsecured line. As we already know, they are doing this to American Citizens abroad. Also, if you havent seen Lone Survivor, I cant recommend it enough. In 1942, Russia was fully engaged in a battle for its very survival along the Eastern front. Taliban was all over that mountain by the time the QRF bird was even enroute. Planning and preparation are key to success, planning for contingencies is critical and establishing exit options is always crucial. On January 17, 2014 at 8:43 am, Will Wynn said: Bad stuff all around. On September 17, 2014 at 7:18 am, corners said: its naive to think were just trying to spread democracy and help people. The rise of computer aided navigation and targeting made attacking legitimate military targets with even dumb bombs a more humane affair. What to do with the civilians is covered by METT-TC in the Army (the last C being for civilians). Low probability of such a coincidence. I would have held them hostage until extraction at the dropback and not a second before. Read some comments about modern era Rangers. Neither Britain nor the United States was anywhere near ready to conduct a land invasion of Europe, but both nations might offer such aid as an air attack might bring. While some of these reports have been dismissed, because stingers usually dont survive for decades, I dont think its too far-fetched to believe these bely bely sneeaky rag heads got their stained fingers on one of these things.
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